Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where we find out more about the people behind a successful career. We speak with the leaders of today and tomorrow to discuss their motivations, their organizations and their personal lives. Why? Because the financial sector could use a little more honest conversation. Our guest this episode has incredible experience in the banking sector and has a long history with ABN AMRO. Although his first steps with that bank were a bit shaky.
Dan: I applied for the job although I didn’t meet the requirements and after a couple of interviews I got that famous letter where they say that you are great but you don’t get a job. So I got a big no.
Voice-over: Family is very important to him. You can hear it throughout his beautiful stories and it seems to be rooted in his youth.
Dan: I grew up in a loving family and I’ve learned that the warmth inside and how you treat each other in a family, in a community, can be a big antidote for what’s happening outside.
Voice-over: He has an incredibly busy work life. How does he stay in balance with work, family and self?
Dan: It’s important to really recognize when you’re not in balance and allow people around you to support you. Being really at times open and vulnerable about it is important.
Voice-over: Enjoy this episode of Leaders in Finance with our inspiring guest Dan Dorner, member of the executive board of ABN AMRO. Your host is Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Welcome to a new episode of Leaders in Finance. This week our guest is Dan Dorner, member of the executive board at ABN AMRO Bank. Welcome Dan.
Dan: Good to be here Jeroen, good to be here.
Jeroen: Wonderful. And before I introduce you, I would like to thank our partners at Leaders in Finance for their support. They are EY, MeDirect, Zanders, Kayak and Roland Berger. We’re very grateful to our partners. Now let’s move on to my guest and as a tradition, I’ll start by spelling the name, which is Dan, D-A-N and Dorner is D-O-R-N-E-R. Dan is a banker and executive with over 25 years of experience in the financial sector. Since November 2021, he holds the position of Chief Commercial Officer Corporate Banking at ABN AMRO. Dan Dorner earned his bachelor degree in banking and capital markets and an MBA in business administration, supplemented by various management courses at institutions such as Nyenrode, IMD and INSEAD. Finally, he has two kids, is married and grew up in Romania and currently lives in Amsterdam. Well, this gives a, you know, a short introduction on you, Dan. I’m very grateful you’re taking the time to speak to Leaders in Finance. And you told me before that you have heard a bit of Leaders in Finance, which is great. Thank you for that. And then you also know that I love to start with kind of a stakeholder approach to get to know a bit more about the role you do, you hold and also the organization you represent, which is ABN AMRO. So first of all, if you look at your job, could you tell me a bit about who your customers are?
Dan: Jeroen, thank you very much. It’s good to hear that you have so many partners because for me, our customers, my clients, are also my partners and a very important stakeholder group. When I look at ABN AMRO Corporate Banking, our clients include family-owned businesses, privately owned companies in the Netherlands, and large listed companies. Outside the Netherlands, we have various team clients in surrounding countries, Northwest Europe, in various sectors, predominantly in energy, digital mobility, but also financial institutions, for example. Beyond European borders, we have a thriving clearing business, as you know, and we are very much partnering with clients in financial markets. So we have a very diverse group of clients. I would summarize it as from the entrepreneur starting a company to a large international and high-growth client that expands beyond the Netherlands, but also beyond Europe.
Jeroen: It makes total sense, but they all need very different approaches and have different needs, I guess, right? From a small entrepreneur all the way up to a large player that uses clearing, for example.
Dan: That’s what makes working in Corporate Banking at ABN AMRO very exciting. Indeed, we support clients with a variety of products and advice. Of course, when dealing with a family-owned company, we provide financing advice and support during generation transfers or succession. We also look at access to capital markets, which is particularly important for larger companies seeking to raise capital for significant investments. These days, as you see, Jeroen, with the transitions we’re undergoing, there is a significant need for infrastructure investment and capital expenditure.
Jeroen: Absolutely. And I think society has become significantly more digitalized than, say, 25 years ago, when you started working. When you look at your customer base, are they quite digital already in your view? I’m just curious because I mentioned before this conversation that I used to work for ABN AMRO, and you still had branches everywhere. That has all changed now. How important is the digital aspect versus the personal touch in your line of business?
Dan: ABN AMRO has a strategy clearly anchored in being a personal bank in a digital age. Sometimes, intimacy is important, and sometimes a very personal and engaging expertise-based relationship is key. We see that our clients are increasingly digitizing as well, and we follow that trend by streamlining our own processes and offering much more of our services, products, and advice via digital channels, such as video banking. For example, when it comes to foreign exchange, we have a highly digital approach to providing access to foreign exchange and risk mitigation for our clients. Yes, I think corporate banking clients are also becoming increasingly digital and expect us to innovate. Maybe one last example, some of our clients are interested in tokenized securities or expanding into digital assets, and we’ve taken significant steps in this area with some of our clients.
Jeroen: That’s a stakeholder, customers, clients. And as stakeholder: your colleagues. Like, how many people and what kind of roles do your people have in your organization? But first of all, how many people do you work with?
Dan: First of all, I think colleagues are very important to me, and I view them as the soul of our organization. What inspires me is the energy that you can unlock together with your colleagues, the potential that sits within an organization. I’m working with around 4,000 colleagues around the globe. It’s a very diverse team, very international as well. You could think about highly specialist roles in terms of providing corporate finance advice or structuring advice, but also colleagues who make sure on a daily basis that our service and operations towards our clients are consistent. So, a very diverse group of colleagues. Of course, I see leadership as an important part, as I believe leadership is really about taking responsibility for the development of the organization, the development of your colleagues. So, yeah, I think I answered your question.
Jeroen: No, you did. You absolutely did. And even more than that. So that’s great. Thank you. Because in my preparation, I also read that you find, and you just mentioned it, you find diverse teams really important. But I always wonder, that sounds really good, right? But does it always work well? Or is it just sometimes good to have people that are not so diverse in the team because they really understand each other easily?
Dan: Very good question. First of all, we are all unique. Each of my colleagues has a story. Bringing these stories together and creating a safe environment and space for these stories to thrive is what I mean by diversity. Of course, diversity is also about gender, cultural diversity, but also about your background and beliefs, the values you carry. And I think for me, even more important is to really create an inclusive environment where people of different backgrounds can thrive. Of course, you need to agree on something together. I think finding a shared understanding is key. Why I believe in diverse teams is because there’s a lot of bias when there’s a lot of conformity. And I think creating a situation where that bias is explored and there’s proper reflection helps decision making and makes decisions better. Now, this shouldn’t go against speed and decisiveness—making a decision is always better than making none, but it helps if we have a rich conversation before taking a decision.
Jeroen: Yeah. And I would also add maybe the fact that your client base is becoming more diverse over the years, right? So understanding your clients well probably requires a group of people who understand all these different groups. This is not a question, but something I’m adding.
Dan: I fully agree with you.
Jeroen: Maybe another stakeholder I wanted to discuss with you is regulation. Are you spending a lot of time with regulators or is that more something that your colleagues do?
Dan: I think regulators and supervisors are very important stakeholders. They play a key role in the financial markets, but also in society. Of course, in my role, I spend time with the regulators because my goal is to take them along in the direction of ABN AMRO, addressing challenges and opportunities we face, and creating a transparent dialogue to be predictable in how we develop our activities and run our business. Being proactive with regulators, having transparent dialogue, sharing thoughts on important topics, it fosters a supportive environment and helps in establishing the right direction and making informed choices. So, yes, they are important stakeholders.
Jeroen: And personally, do you spend a lot of time, and are you often going to the DMB, for example, or to the joint supervisory team in Frankfurt? Is that something you’re personally involved with a lot?
Dan: Yes, I’m heavily involved with that. It’s a natural and normal part of my role.
Jeroen: Part of the job.
Dan: Yeah.
Jeroen: Another stakeholder I’d like to discuss is competition. Are you facing a lot of competition? Especially in the Netherlands, but obviously you’re active in many more countries, there are several banks with a fair share or a large share of the market. Do you feel a lot of competition in your work, in your 4,000 people and the client-facing part of that? Do they feel a lot of competition?
Dan: Yes. First of all, competition is inherent to any industry and sector. We see increased competition as ABN AMRO, and more broadly in the financial sector. In the Netherlands, this includes more international banks interested in the Dutch market. But we are also active in many other countries where we face increased competition. We see ourselves as insurgents, looking to acquire clients and remain relevant in various markets around the Netherlands. So, yes, I see an increasingly competitive landscape.
Jeroen: Is it mainly banks or should I look more at other players, like tech firms, fintech, or non-banks?
Dan: Good question, Jeroen. It depends on the client segment. In SME markets and the consumer markets, you see competition from neobrokers or tech-driven companies. In the corporate banking and investment banking segments, financial players are more predominant. However, there is a higher degree of disintermediation, with market participants aiming to disrupt established value chains and practices. Throughout my career, I’ve been highly competitive and still am. You want to win in being relevant for your clients and gain recognition for that. I’ve also learned that partnering with some market participants can be beneficial.
Jeroen: Do you have an example of that?
Dan: A very good example is our Joy Venture in equity brokerage with ODDO BHF. And I’m proud to say that now we are the third year in a row the number one broker in Benelux. These are successful partnerships where we moved beyond seeing someone as a competitor and looked at teaming up and combining our strengths.
Jeroen: We’ve had clients, we’ve had employees, we’ve had competition, we’ve had regulation. Is there a stakeholder that we should really be discussing apart from society? Because that’s one I want to bring in. Is there another stakeholder you’d love to discuss?
Dan: We didn’t talk about shareholders.
Jeroen: No, shareholders, yes. Is there anything you want to share there? Because the shareholder has changed many times for you during your time at ABN AMRO, right? You’ve been fully state-owned, you’ve been partly, you’ve been fully commercial. If you have something that you’re willing and able to share, that’d be really interesting.
Dan: Yes. So, first of all, I think it’s important to note that shareholders are, for me, a solid test of value creation. Why am I saying that is that you need to be able to measure your performance, and that performance needs to be recognized by stakeholders. I think shareholders have become more sophisticated over time. Of course, shareholders these days are not only looking at financial performance; they’re also looking at your reputation. They’re looking at your non-financial performance, such as your approach to environmental matters or societal governance. So, the way shareholders are measuring our performance has changed over time. They remain an important stakeholder, and you need to be predictable and ideally exceed expectations.
Jeroen: Is it different for a public shareholder versus a private shareholder? In this case, you’re still partly owned by the government.
Dan: That’s true. We respect our large shareholder NLFI. They have an important role, and we see their decisions to sell down their shares in ABN AMRO as confirmation of our strategy. For us, it’s important to execute our strategy independently. I think for us as an executive board and for me personally, you treat all shareholders in the same way, and you need to perform and provide them with a transparent and predictable performance.
Jeroen: Thanks for adding this stakeholder, the shareholder. The last one, as I announced earlier, is society, because when I ask about society as a stakeholder, often I get very general answers. So, I would love to see with you if we can get a very specific idea of how you view stakeholder society, because it’s a very broad one. It could be anyone, basically.
Dan: Yeah, I think, Jeroen, the first thing that comes to mind is an outing I had with the corporate banking team and the ABN AMRO Foundation. We were with a large group of children, engaging in sporting and outdoor activities, really providing equal opportunities (in Dutch: gelijke kansen) to children to experience something new and perhaps discover a new passion or something they would like to pursue later on. For me, that’s part of society—being mindful of what society needs and the different parts of it. A second element that comes to mind is when we engage with our clients and finance projects or provide advice. It’s important to look beyond the business model of the company and consider the societal reality around it. I’ve learned that, in the end, we can no longer operate without taking into account the environment, the “backyard” or the context in which we operate. I think that’s a second important element. And of course, for us at ABN AMRO, and it’s also part of our purpose, financial inclusion and financial health are about ensuring we provide access to our services in the right way to various types of customers. That’s also part of how I reflect on society. Yeah, and I think, in the end, my colleagues are also part of society, their families. So actually, every single day, the way I behave on my bike from my home to the office, the way I interact with a large listed company and what I support in terms of projects, but also how we engage with communities and support their dreams, it’s part of us being a member of society.
Jeroen: Sounds like you feel good about ABN AMRO and its role in society. Otherwise, you would probably not work here anymore.
Dan: I feel good about working at ABN AMRO in the first place. I’ve been working more than half of my life there—your age at the beginning of this podcast. More than half of my life for ABN AMRO, I feel good about it. ABN AMRO has brought me a lot, and I see that with ABN AMRO, and it’s a platform where I can have a positive impact on society and my clients.
Jeroen: That’s a great segue into something I wanted to ask you to reflect on because about 25 years ago, I think you started working with ABN AMRO in 1999, if I’m not mistaken.
Dan: Yes, 15th of December.
Jeroen: A real banger, knows exactly the date. Do you remember the day you came in? What did that day look like, the very first day at ABN AMRO?
Dan: I vividly remember it. We were a team of seven in a small branch in a city in Romania, a town of 200,000 inhabitants. ABN AMRO was opening a corporate banking outlet. They didn’t call it a branch then—branch was a retail concept. I joined the team, a very motivated team of seven colleagues. Our mission was to position ABN AMRO as a relevant partner for clients in that region.
Jeroen: What did the team look like? Was it diverse or were seven Dutch or seven Romanians or a mixture or other countries?
Dan: There were seven Romanians.
Jeroen: Not very diverse.
Dan: Gender diversity was very high. And I must say, I come from a culture where gender diversity is quite strong, with high representation of women in leadership roles in my native country. And my first day was a day of enthusiasm. I took from my parents a sort of a lesson that it’s very important to be enthusiastic. It’s also important to engage and connect with your colleagues. My mother always told me, you need to surround yourself with people that are smarter than you. That was my attitude when I joined that team of seven.
Jeroen: That’s great. And we’ll get to your parents later because I understood from my preparation.
Dan: I’m impatient.
Jeroen: You’re impatient. Well, they are from financial services as well, as I understand. But I’ll get back to that later. First, we’d like to know, how did you get the job? Was it easy to get the job or did they ask you or how did it work?
Dan: That’s a very good story. Let me take you back to 1998. I was about to graduate from university, my bachelor’s degree. I saw an ad in the newspaper—ABN was opening a branch in my university city. I applied for the job even though I didn’t meet the requirements. After a couple of interviews, I got that famous letter where they say that you are great but don’t get a job. So I got a big no. A year and a half later, I received a phone call from ABN AMRO.
Jeroen: A year and a half?
Dan: Later.
Jeroen: Oh, so much later.
Dan: Much later. Almost two years later, I got a call asking if I was still interested in joining an interview in a different town, my hometown. And I said yes. I went to an interview and met the country executive, you know, Dutch leadership. My first encounter with Dutch culture. And in the end, I got a role as a corporate banking relationship manager, account manager. And my lesson from that is never give up. You can always connect the dots. So always update your profile and make sure you are visible.
Jeroen: So the member of the executive board of one of the biggest banks in the Netherlands actually got rejected by ABN AMRO at first.
Dan: That’s true. I can still find the rejection letter.
Jeroen: Oh, that’s great. That’s a really, really good story.
Voice-over: You’re listening to Leaders in Finance, with Jeroen Broekema
Jeroen: How did you like working at the bank? You said good atmosphere, a good vibe. Were you working a lot alone or in a team? Or did you go to clients all the time? Like, can you describe what your work looked like?
Dan: This is a question about that time?
Jeroen: Yeah. Particularly that first job. I’m always very curious about the first job.
Dan: It was a very commercially driven role. And it was a growth story for ABN AMRO in 1995. So this was four years later. ABN AMRO had a large ambition. And for me, the mission was to really acquire new clients and build the reputation of ABN AMRO in Romania as a good corporate banking partner. So I was a lot on the road, a lot knocking on clients’ doors, cold calling, talking to foreign direct investors, building a network, but also learning a lot about what ABN AMRO has to offer. So it’s very important to understand what your institution has to offer both in terms of values, but also in terms of services, products, what’s the value add. So I was spending my time learning about ABN AMRO, being part of a team, building a team, but also spending time with clients and making sure I’m the partner of choice for clients.
Jeroen: If you reflect on that first job, what would you say was the thing that you were strongest in? What was your real strength? But also, what was the thing you thought like, I’m actually not that good at that part of the job? If you can pick one on both sides. I know this is not an interview for a job to the member of the board, but I’m really curious. But anyway, I’m really interested to learn how you reflect on that because then the follow-up question could be like, if that’s still the case or if that’s different.
Dan: What went well is connecting with people of different backgrounds, different cultures. I remember the time we had a lot of investments from Asia, investments from Western Europe. So really connecting with different cultures and trying to understand and being intrinsically motivated by understanding the plans of my clients. I think that went well. Probably what could have gone better at that point in time is I was very competitive. I was not really prepared to lose a lot of business, but I learned at that point in time that sometimes you can also lose or you can also say no and you learn from that situation. So maybe I think at that point in time in my career, now I’m trying to, it’s getting clearer for me at that point in time. I was probably driven by a very strong commercial mindset. And that means understanding your client, delivering for your client. And later on. And today I learned that sometimes saying no also creates value. And why am I saying that is that I’ve seen also in my career that sometimes management culture can also break a company. And then you also need to be able to act in the best interest of your client and maybe say no. And that sometimes avoids further value destruction. And on the other side of the equation, if you have an entrepreneur in front of you that has a good plan, is transparent, maybe supporting that takes away the anxiety of the table that the bank may not be there when it gets more difficult. So yes, I think that’s, that’s a bit my reflection on your question.
Jeroen: No, it’s great. It’s a great answer. I really, really enjoy it. And also because I can fully understand that this happens, especially in the first job, you want to prove yourself and everything, but the word ‘competitive’ came up like two or three times in this interview. So I guess you’re still quite competitive in a way then, although you’re probably more nuanced now than you were in your first job, and you probably see all the other factors around it as well. But the competitive side of you is probably still there. You still want to win deals with your teams, I guess.
Dan: Actually, I’ve moved in my career from proving myself to improving myself. That’s a nice one. And why am I saying that is that improving yourself and having a mindset for that means that you play to win. However, if you lose, you’re ready to learn. So you play each opportunity with the best of your abilities and with the willingness to become better.
Jeroen: This is easier now than when you just started a job, and not you particularly, but in general, I think it’s easier after a while, right? You get more confidence.
Dan: It is easier. And I think it becomes even easier if you have a good understanding of who you are as a person and what your inner strength is—where you’re coming from, what’s your identity. When I came to the Netherlands in 2009, I had a big urge or a big goal to prove myself. Being in a new culture, in a new environment, I felt that I had to prove myself. It was not always easy, but at a certain point, I realized that it’s not about proving myself. It’s about really being who I am and being willing to learn from the environment around me, taking responsibility, and also staying authentic in a way, staying genuine in a way.
Jeroen: I think you gave a great answer because especially from proving to improving is something I will not forget. I’ve never heard it before, but it’s a great one because it also means you shouldn’t be looking too much at your ego at that point. Even if something doesn’t work out, it’s still something you’ve learned. You probably have improved instead of just feeling as if it was a failure or something didn’t work out, but you just learned, which is then also winning.
Dan: Let me tell you a story. It was October 2009, and I got this opportunity to interview here in the Netherlands. I went to the Rokin in Amsterdam, Fortis Bank Netherlands, and I got this opportunity to have an interview, potentially moving to the Netherlands. After I got that opportunity, I also got cold feet. I called a dear mentor of mine and I said, “Dear Ian, if this goes wrong, I can always move back.” He asked me then, “What do you mean with moving back?” “Yes, I can always return to Romania. I can always restart what I used to do.” He reminded me then, “Even if you return geographically to Romania, you’re a different person. You’ve learned something. You’ve developed something. Even if you failed, you are a better person. You have better insights.” He told me, “In life, you never move backwards. You always move forward.” That for me was also one of those moments where I realized that stretching yourself, taking a decision is better than, let’s say, staying in your comfort zone or preserving a false sense of certainty. I truly believe that in uncertain times, you grow the most.
Jeroen: Does it also mean that you’ve been quite harsh on yourself in the past? That you thought it’s always your mistake if something went wrong, or did you always think you should have done better instead of other things? You’re always blaming it on yourself.
Dan: I’m going to be very honest with you because a couple of days ago, one of my team members said to me, “Hey Dan, make sure you don’t raise the bar too high for yourself.” I don’t know. Are you a psychologist Jeroen?
Jeroen: I felt like this could be the case.
Dan: Look, I have an interesting motivation to improve myself. I think for me, my purpose is really to be a great partner for my colleagues, my clients, and my family. That means that you need to have self-reflection and you need to work hard.
Jeroen: I alluded to it earlier in this conversation, but if our research is correct, your parents were also in financial services or at least one of them. Is that right?
Dan: That’s right. Both of them worked in the financial sector. Before ’89, of course, they had a ceiling above their head in terms of their opportunities. After ’89, they got more opportunities. They both studied accounting and then afterwards they pursued a career in the financial sector. They both worked for commercial banks and for the regulated supervisors.
Jeroen: Was this an inspiration for you to also work in financial services?
Dan: Probably yes. I think it was more that when I graduated, there was a very dynamic banking market in Romania and Eastern Europe. You had a lot of foreign banks with new standards, higher standards, the ability to learn, and the ability to develop great products for your clients. I think it was a combination. It was being inspired by my parents and their motivation and their work ethic and also seeing the opportunity in the market and seeing that you can be relevant in the financial sector.
Jeroen: And you said ceiling, the ceiling for their careers. So after the whole geopolitical change, this also meant that their career really took off more. They could have more opportunities than they had before. Is that right?
Dan: Yes, that’s right. So my parents were 37 when the revolution took place in Romania. So I always reflect on that. What was their age when there was a major change in their life and in their access to opportunity? So 37 and indeed afterwards, I’m very proud of my parents. They were very successful and had a great reputation in their profession.
Jeroen: Well, actually the whole geopolitical change, I will never forget as a relatively small kid, I’m a bit younger than you are, but the death of Ceaușescu was a big thing. I remember it very vividly as if it happened yesterday on television. Could you share a bit more about, if you’re willing to, how you grew up, the way you were brought up, how did it look like at your home?
Dan: Of course, I was 13 when the revolution happened. Indeed, I also saw on TV what happened at that point in time with the leadership of the country. I grew up in a loving family and I’ve learned that the warmth inside and how you treat each other in a family, in a community can be a big antidote for what’s happening outside. And I’ve also learned at that point in time that scarcity can be tasteful or that scarcity can actually have value and abundance does not always bring the best out of people.
Jeroen: Can you make it more specific? Because I completely agree and I have all kinds of examples in my head of what that could be, but maybe you can share something very specific about scarcity versus abundance.
Dan: I have this personal story that I think my family, my kids are always saying, “Dad, you’re embarrassing ourselves with this story.”
Jeroen: It’s great to share here.
Dan: This is the best place to share this. So I told you I was 13 in ’89. So at the end of the 80s, you probably can imagine a very gray society, very cold outside. The month of December, a couple of weeks before Christmas, although Christmas was not necessarily celebrated inside in the family, but I think in society it was not really, it was more a taboo, I think. So December, cold, gray, your parents are at work and me and my younger brother playing tricks and queuing in a long line, waiting for bananas. It was really the time of the year where you are getting this joy of potentially getting your hands on a couple of bananas. Along queue, many old people and children. And after a couple of hours, if you’re lucky, you got the bananas and we were running at home with these two dark green bananas. We were very happy. We had to store the bananas on top of a cupboard for a couple of weeks so they got ripe. And just in time for Christmas, they were ready. We were asking every day, “Are the bananas ready?” And then we were just savoring and enjoying that fruit on Christmas day. Now I can afford plenty of bananas, but none of them taste like that banana. And I think that for me, the metaphor is that it’s about the experience. It’s about the experience you have together as humans and the joy you have together, how you live together, how you interact with each other. What’s the purpose you are going for together that gives you that experience that can be rewarding.
Jeroen: It’s a great story. And the follow-up question I would like to ask is, how do you raise your kids now with all of this in the back of your head? Because you don’t want to spoil them.
Dan: I believe that the best way to raise your children is to make sure you raise yourself properly. And probably the challenge is more with me staying grounded and making sure I live with the right values and I lead with the right example, and I’m a parent in the right way. So it’s less about my children and it’s more about what I stand for.
Jeroen: Well, let’s then ask the same question to you. Do you ever feel spoiled in a way, considering what you had in the past and how you live now? Do you sometimes feel like you need to work on not becoming too spoiled because now you have your driver, he or she brings you everywhere, right? You have a lot of money to spend. And so how do you stay grounded then, right? It’s something you must think about, right? Yes. Especially because you have had such a completely different experience in the past. Because I don’t think there are many people here our age, we’re pretty close, that have ever had a story like you with the bananas, like I grew up in bananas in abundance, right?
Dan: Well, we all have our stories. A banana is just a story. But I think we all need to really look at our lives and see what the moments are, what the equivalent of the banana story is, and what we learn from it. Yes, it’s important to stay grounded. And how do I do that? It’s really by making sure I don’t forget where I’m coming from, making sure I interact with different parts of society, both in my native country and also here in the Netherlands. Showing interest in people from different backgrounds, different origins, making sure that I interact with people from different walks of life, actively pursuing interaction that grounds me. And I think that’s the way I deal with it. Also trying to understand the stories of the people I meet, because you’d be surprised, we all have stories that give us grounding. I think we need to learn from each other.
Jeroen: That’s clear. That’s a great answer as well. We recently introduced these five questions, which I call the unusual five in English. I’d love to—we’ve sent you them before, but you said before you haven’t really looked at them, which is good, actually, because then I get much more unpolished answers probably. But the first one is, do you have a somewhat or unusual hobby or something that you do in your personal life or at work? Do you have something that is unusual in terms of hobby or something you enjoy?
Dan: Thank you, Jeroen, for these five unusual questions. I am indeed practicing meditation every morning. It’s becoming more usual, so I wouldn’t call it unusual. I think more people do that. But I start my day with 10 minutes of meditation. And I think maybe what’s unusual is that I use this gratitude book, and I think I have five of them now.
Jeroen: What is a gratitude book? I mean, you’re writing down the things you’re…
Dan: Things I’m grateful for, things that are important to me, things that I reflect upon. And I also sometimes write a poem in those books or just take a moment to write a small poem. I’m always scared to look back, but actually, every time I do, I get a lot of inspiration, a lot of energy. Yeah, it encourages me to continue doing that, to reflect on what I’m grateful for. One day I want to really gather all those parts of poems and see what comes out, you know, connecting the dots backwards.
Jeroen: Exactly. Yeah, that’s great. I can tell you that since October 1st, 2019, I’ve written a diary, not a gratitude book, but more like a diary every single day for the last five years and a bit. I’m also embarrassed when I read into it again, but it always helps because it really helps to put things into perspective. Like, was I really worried about that four years ago? How could I ever have been worried about that?
Dan: I’m not alone, Jeroen. So it’s not that unusual as a hobby.
Jeroen: Exactly. Well, I mean, I think the unusual part of it is that you actually do it every day because that’s the thing. People do things once in a while, but you keep doing it in a structured way. So the second unusual, somewhat unusual question out of these five, do you have someone, a well-known person that you idolize or see as inspiration? And the reason why I’m asking a well-known person is because otherwise it’s always my dad, my brother, my mom, my sister. Do you have someone well-known that you idolize or see as inspiration?
Dan: I find Andre Agassi inspirational. I read his biography a couple of years back, called Open. What I find inspiring is that you see someone who constantly looked to improve himself and actually achieved the highest performance and highest recognition, becoming number one in the world, falling back to really insignificant performance, and then coming back again and becoming number one in the world. So for me, what’s inspiring about that is really the resilience he showed, and it’s also the ability to learn from the highs and from the lows.
Jeroen: Again, improving, I guess.
Dan: Yeah, and not giving up.
Jeroen: Not giving up, yes. The third unusual question in these five is, what has been the scariest moment in your life, if you’re willing to share that, or one of the most scariest moments?
Dan: This is going to challenge my parent image, but when we went a long time ago with our four-year-old son on holiday to Italy, and we had one of these beach activities, and for a few minutes, he disappeared. We lost him. So that was really scary.
Jeroen: can imagine. But you found him quickly after.
Dan: We found him quickly, thank God. He was wearing this red scarf on his head. I was screening the horizon, and then I saw something very small and with a red scarf walking alongside the beach, and then I just started, I just ran to get him.
Jeroen: Now I can imagine it’s very scary. Number four, you’re given 200 million today, let’s say euros, and you must spend it within the month or even faster. Could you share, preferably very specifically, what you would spend it on?
Dan: 200 million is a lot of money. There are two things I would do. Number one, I would actually donate a big part of that to cancer research. I’m actually very impressed and fascinated by the work at Cancer Center Amsterdam, Professor Kazemier. Really great work.
Jeroen: Would you know him personally?
Dan: I had the honor to meet him once, and there is great work being done there also in cancer research, but also neurological research and the combination of the two. I think there are still so many people in our society today who are affected by cancer. We’re living longer, but cancer still impacts many of our friends and people around us. So that’s one. And secondly, I really believe in supporting the young generation, supporting the youth. We do that with ABN AMRO as well, but I would also really support young children of different backgrounds to pursue their dreams in life, making sure that they have access to education, health, and can develop themselves.
Jeroen: Are you talking about people in the Netherlands or Romania or anywhere in the world?
Dan: I would say that anywhere in the world sounds big, but I would start here in the Netherlands, and I would also connect maybe a bridge between Romania and the Netherlands and see how we can, how kids here can learn from kids there and the other way around, maybe.
Jeroen: Great. I love it. I would love to hand over the 200 million. I would completely agree with the two points, although I’m not sure I can actually hand you 200 million.
Dan: I’m waiting for that. I’m going to send you a ticket.
Jeroen: I think we got some questions from your AML department about this when I’m sending you 200. If you could change one, this is the last out of five, if you could change one decision you’ve made in the past, what would that be and why?
Dan: I would not change any decision. And why is that? Because I believe you need to learn from mistakes. So it’s not about changing your decision. It’s about the ability to learn from your decisions. So I’m very clear about that. You make sure you learn from any decision you take. We are actually making a million choices every single day. So I really believe that it’s not about looking back and changing something. It’s about looking forward with an informed and inspired view of what you’ve learned from your decisions.
Voice-over: You’re listening to Leaders in Finance with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Apart from the unusual five, we have a pleaser and a teaser. On the pleasing side, we always ask about…
Dan: You’re pushing your luck now.
Jeroen: Yeah, I’m pushing it. Let’s see where we can get. So on the pleasing side, it’s always the same. We collect books. We’ve now written down over 100 books from guests, or actually over 200. So we’d love to ask you that after the teaser. The teaser is more related to work. And the teaser we’ve written down is when the Capital Markets Union or the Banking Union, let’s call it that way, will become a real union within the European Union. Banks like ABN AMRO are just not big enough to survive. They will be acquired by the larger European banks, like let’s say BNP Paribas or any other name you can come up with. Do you agree with that? That’s your view, Jeroen. No, it’s not a view. It’s a statement. Not my personal view. I’m just curious how you think about this.
Dan: I believe that a strong Europe needs a strong financial market, a strong capital market. And I believe that consolidation will take place in Europe. And I also believe that ABN AMRO has a strong positioning. Our duty is to really make sure that our clients appreciate our services, our offerings, our clients believe in us. Secondly, that we have a profitable and thriving business. And thirdly, that we have a great reputation. And we are a good employer. I think if you do that, you are really, I would say, playing rather than being played, Jeroen. So I believe in, again, pursuing your own strategy and walking your own path.
Jeroen: On the personal side, first of all, do you like to read?
Dan: I like to read, yeah.
Jeroen: Do you have a particular book you like to share?
Dan: Mainly books I like to read. Of course, I read a lot.
Jeroen: Yeah, well, you do read a lot for your work every day. But more on the personal side, do you have a particular book you like to share?
Dan: There’s a book that really had an impact on me. It’s called Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. It’s really a foundational book for me. And I’ve read it a few times now. Viktor Frankl says, “Everything can be taken from a human being, everything but one thing—the last of human freedom: to choose your own way in any given circumstance.” So it’s again about choice and about standing up for what you believe is right. That book had an impact on me and helps me also, coming back to the grounding, helps me to stay grounded.
Jeroen: It’s very hard not to cry during the book, I found. I’ve also read it, I think, twice or three times, but it’s very intense.
Dan: Yeah, it helps me stay grounded.
Jeroen: Yeah, absolutely. Great choice. We will add it to the long list of books that board members and CEOs have shared with Leaders in Finance. We’re almost wrapping up this podcast, but I have a couple of last questions. And one is, do you have tips for people that start their career in the financial services today? Let’s say, you know, a trainee comes in today or someone else within your organization that is ambitious. What tips do you have for her or for him?
Dan: Of course, if you give me the opportunity to share, there are three things that are important to me. I would say, I would share from my heart with any young professional. One, stay hungry and keep learning. Two, take responsibility. It’s maybe comforting to stay on the fence, but it’s more rewarding to make a choice and take responsibility. And three, stay authentic and do real work from understanding who you are. Because I always say, you know, roots give you grounding and give you strength, and dreams give you wings to fly. So make sure you work on both your roots and your dreams.
Jeroen: How do you work on your dreams? How do you do that? Because it sounds great, but when I think about it, practically, I’m walking out of this room here, I have another meeting today. How do I work on my dreams?
Dan: I think it’s about how do I work on my dreams?
Jeroen: Yes, better.
Dan: I’m not sure how you would work on your dreams, but how do I work on my dreams? It’s really by exploring, you know, what can I learn from other people? I mentioned to you Cancer Center Amsterdam. I’m going this evening to an event there. So it’s really exposing myself to other possibilities, other perspectives. And, you know, bringing people together, connecting people for a great goal or, you know, for achieving something together. And I think the last thing is, you know, going to Rotterdam and meeting a client and understanding what their plans are. For me, it’s also working on my dreams to, you know, make sure that I also, in that situation, bring the right partners to the table and make the right things happen.
Jeroen: Last three questions. One is, how do you make sure you balance your very busy work life with your private life, with your family, your kids? Because this is a very intense job, I’m sure. It’s not a nine-to-five job. So how do you stay in balance?
Dan: I think it would be a lie if I told you that I’m always in balance. Being able to deal with not being in balance is even more important. So I think it’s important to really recognize when you’re not in balance and allow people around you to support you. And that, in my case, is my family, but also my colleagues, and being really, at times, open and vulnerable about it is important. And then there’s, of course, the more trivial aspect of being active, sports-wise.
Jeroen: You run, right? I think if I’m not mistaken, our research says you did a marathon, right? In New York, is that correct?
Dan: Yes, I ran two marathons in New York and Berlin, and it was a humbling experience.
Jeroen: That’s for the listener to come up with the story around that. I said three questions, now I’m adding one. So I have two left. The other one is, you went all the way from a job where you served customers in Romania all the way to the board at ABN AMRO. Is there a chance that I could be interviewing the next or the future CEO at ABN AMRO?
Dan: You’re interviewing Dan today. I think that’s what you need to keep in mind. You’re interviewing Dan.
Jeroen: Good. Very clear answer. I mean, I wasn’t expecting a real answer here anyway. Our last question is, Dan, before I thank you for this really, really great interview, in my view, and you’re fantastic.
Dan: More people believe that.
Jeroen: No, I’m sure they do. But I’ll get to that in a second. But before I wrap up, I always ask the same question. Is there something that you would love to share here that we haven’t covered? I mean, there were many places where we could have gone in other directions. But still, if there’s something that you feel should have been shared today, then please do. Otherwise, I’ll wrap up.
Dan: No, I’d like to thank you for the opportunity, Jeroen. And I think this is it.
Jeroen: Great. I really enjoyed this conversation, as I just said. I have a small present for you. It’s a book about the first hundred speakers of the podcast, guests at the podcast. There will be a second book. We’re working on it already. You will be in it if you approve, of course. It’s the personal parts of the podcast that are summarized here with a foreword by Laura van Geest, the chair of the AFM. And that’s what I’m going to give you right after the podcast. But for now, I wanted to say I really enjoyed it for one main reason. And that is because this podcast started almost five years ago. The reason was to show that everyone in the financial services industry are just people like everyone else and that it’s willing to also be a bit more vulnerable and share what their beliefs are, what their thoughts are. And this is exactly what you have done. So I really, really appreciate that. Thank you so much, Dan, for taking the time to speak to me and to Leaders in Finance.
Dan: Thank you, Jeroen.
Voice-over: It has been a pleasure and I wish you a lot of success. You’ve been listening to Leaders in Finance. We hope you’ve enjoyed the episode and would love to hear from you. What’s on your mind? Who would you like to hear next? Tell us in an Apple or Google review, via email or our social media channels. We’d greatly appreciate it. Finally, we’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support: EY, MeDirect, Zanders, Kayak and Roland Berger. Thank you for listening.