Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where we find out more about the people behind a successful career. We speak with the leaders of today and tomorrow to discuss their motivations, their organizations, and their personal lives. Why? Because the financial sector could use a little more honest conversation. We’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support. They are Kayak, EY, Medirect, and Roland Berger. Your host is Marije Tolsma-Groen.
Marije: Hi everyone, and thank you for joining us. We are live here at the Wealth Management event in Soesterberg, and this is an extra episode of this podcast with a couple of people who were present today. My name is Marije. It’s an honor to be taking over from Jeroen, who usually hosts these kinds of podcasts. So thank you, Jeroen, for this opportunity. Let’s quickly do a round of introductions. Patrick, could you introduce yourself to the audience, please?
Patrick: Hi Marije, hi everybody. My name is Patrick Verbeij, I’m Head of Wealth Management at Rabobank, and thanks for having me.
Boudewijn: Wonderful. Kurt?
Kurt: Hi, I’m Kurt Vanhee. I’m with Objectway, and I’m a Managing Director for some of the territories that we cover.
Marije: And last but not least?
Boudewijn: Boudewijn Chalmers, Partner at EY and responsible for the Wealth and Asset Management consulting practice here in the Netherlands.
Marije: Great. Well, all of you have in common that you were on stage today. Let’s talk a bit about your contributions. What did you do, Kurt? What was your item? What did you discuss?
Kurt: I was very happy to be here. It was a very nice event, and I had the opportunity, in a short interview, to present a little bit about what Objectway is doing, what the influences in the market are, and how that affects our business.
Marije: How about you, Patrick?
Patrick: On a normal day, I help the Wealth Management team at Rabobank, but today I was the host of a panel. I moderated a panel discussion with family offices, and we touched upon some very interesting topics.
Marije: So not your everyday job!
Patrick: No, no.
Marije: Did you enjoy it?
Patrick: Yeah, but it was also a little bit stressful for me because the stage is a bit intimidating. But I think I did okay.
Marije: Yeah, you definitely did well. Boudewijn, of course, I should have started with you because we also began the day with you. Tell us about your contribution.
Boudewijn: Yeah. I think my role was mainly setting the scene for the day around the future of Wealth Management in the market. And as I mentioned, we could talk about that for days. I had 15 minutes, so I focused on four specific topics: the importance of differentiation in Wealth Management and the private banking markets, developments and focus on intergenerational wealth transfer, family offices as a key topic, and developments around AI. I think it was nice to see these topics come back throughout the day in the different sessions, interviews, and panel discussions.
Marije: Yeah, that’s how we wanted it to be, indeed, Boudewijn. And I think that’s also what actually happened on stage. The four themes you found paramount for developments in the private banking and asset management world were definitely the red thread, so to speak, throughout the day. But of course, many other topics were discussed as well. I’m curious—looking back, and you know, it’s just been an hour since we left the stage—was there anything content-wise that you learned, that stood out for you, or that you found remarkable and worthy of mention in this podcast, Patrick?
Patrick: Well, I wondered today when I stepped in: is there anybody in the room who has the solution for the next generation? And I’m sorry to say that nobody does. I think everybody is still looking for it, exploring it. But this sector is also moving slowly. So it concerns me a little that nobody is willing to say how far they’ve come. I’m not really impressed with the way we are moving and preparing for the next generation and the transfer of wealth.
Marije: Do you share this concern within Rabobank—that the next generation is the key target?
Patrick: Yeah, we do. But to be honest, we are also still exploring it.
Marije: I was going to ask—do you have the key?
Patrick: No. No.
Marije: Okay. So that’s one takeaway. What stood out for you, Kurt?
Kurt: I have three of them.
Marije: Okay.
Kurt: First of all, sorry about that. It was one of your topics. Client engagement was on one of your slides in the affluent market. It is very important to get in contact with and engage your client. That’s also something we see in the market—the impact of the family office. I think it’s time for the family office to come out of the basement. They have an important role and are a key player in the ecosystem, I believe. And thirdly, AI—everything. But AI not just as a term; people are starting, and should start, to look at how they can implement AI in their processes. AI is not the Holy Grail. It’s not the solution. It is a tool, and we have to see how we can start implementing it in our processes. That’s what we’re looking into, and we’re also checking that with people like EY or with banks. And that’s important.
Marije: We have to do it. Yeah. And one takeaway I hear from the panel—the tech panel that spoke about these developments—is: let’s not wait another five years but take it head-on.
Kurt: But what’s important is that it will not come as a final solution. You really have to embrace it and see which pieces you can use in your processes and how you can benefit from it, I think.
Marije: Yeah.
Boudewijn: I think Kurt mentioned quite a few things. For me, that actually comes down to the takeaway from today, and maybe not surprisingly, there are so many different topics happening in this sector at the moment. So it’s not one single topic that is going to define the future. The diversity of topics is, I think, a key point. That said, whether it’s AI, technology, next-gen, or family offices, one recurring theme is how you engage with the client group—whether it’s the mass affluent, Millennials, or the ultra-rich. It’s about how you engage with them and do so in a systematic way. It’s not just about meeting a client once a year or providing them with a digital tool and expecting it to solve everything. It’s really about systematically engaging with these different client groups to build the next level of relationships. I think we all agree that relationships are key, both through digital engagement and human interactions. That systematic approach to engagement is critical, also for the next-gen that Patrick referred to. And with next-gen, it’s the same—there’s no single solution that will solve everything. It’s a combination of factors, but it all starts with engagement because it’s not going to solve itself.
Marije: I loved seeing how, although the four themes you mentioned at the start of the day seemed quite different in terms of topic, they turned out to be remarkably intertwined in terms of the challenges and what needs to happen. Especially when it comes to the next generation—when we talk about AI, we talk about people growing up in a completely different world than the affluent elderly, who have always been used to spending money. There are different wishes, different needs. How do you approach them? I loved seeing that, despite their differences, the themes shared a strong commonality in how these issues should be addressed.
Boudewijn: Yeah. And we haven’t even spoken about the product side. We didn’t mention it, but it was obviously very interesting to hear from Jamie Sinclair at BlackRock. Content-wise, he had a very insightful presentation, especially the combination of passive versus active strategies, which, by the way, Reyer Hulstein also touched on in your discussion around family offices. He also addressed what this means for pricing structures, fee models, and business models in general—adding to the diversity of topics discussed. A lot of food for thought, so to speak.
Marije: Good. Well, food for thought, and maybe also some points for improvement. I mean, this has been the second wealth management event this year. Last year was the first one. If we were to organize it again next year, would you have any suggestions, Kurt?
Kurt: I find the format very good because the site is very nice and compact. It moves in time, so you don’t have long breaks or boring sessions. So that’s good. One thing that would be great, and I haven’t seen it at any other event, is more engagement with the audience. And that’s always a bit tricky. Here, you tried to do it with the green and red cards, but you see that people don’t really like to intervene. However, there are a lot of specialists in the audience who could contribute.I don’t have the solution, but if you could find a way to better engage the audience, I think that could be a very positive evolution. Also, with the panels—if the panel would engage in more discussion—it could be food for thought.
Marije:
Yeah, good one. I mean, I definitely tried, but I agree with you. There was very limited interaction from the audience. Either they had nothing to add to the discussion or no questions, or maybe they felt held back for some reason. I had figured upfront that since we chose to do a lot of interviews and also a panel setting—where many questions are already being asked—it would naturally create a bridge to the audience, inviting them to speak up more.
Patrick: It’s also a competitive market. You put the market in one room, so I think people felt a little held back in engaging.
Marije: Yeah, not showing their…
Patrick: No, don’t show your cards too early.
Marije: Not showing their cards, yeah.
Kurt: If I may add one thing—maybe instead of having a stage with all the seats, you should put the speakers in the middle and the audience around them.
Marije: Build an arena around it.
Kurt: Because then people will walk in and think, this is different.
Marije: I don’t know… Yeah. I think something that came up last year, which we didn’t implement in the end, was the idea of having smaller settings for panel discussions or even breakout discussions—roundtables where people can directly address a topic of interest with specialists in the room. Well, maybe still something to consider for next time. Any points from your end, Boudewijn.
Boudewijn: Well, I add to your tradition now, Kurt also mentioning something positive. I think the seniority in the audience was amazing. We really had the leaders of the industry together, which was fantastic and very clear. And we had a full house, which is always great. I think the gender diversity on stage is absolutely something that is a bit concerning. I know that in the industry, it’s much better than what we saw today on stage. So let’s make that very clear.
Marije: And again, we cannot say that we didn’t try. No. We did try.
Boudewijn: I know that very well. But I think, in reflection, I’m sure I was not the only one noticing it.
Marije: So close to Women’s Day, maybe it’s an idea next year to do something especially around Women’s Day. And I said, you’re wrong. I’ll discuss this with Jeroen—I find it interesting.
Boudewijn: No, 100% agree.
Marije: Yeah. Any more points from you for improvement?
Boudewijn: Not for improvement, no. I think the engagement was great. But I also concur with Patrick on that point—that having a senior audience with all competitors together in a room, which is, by the way, very exciting in the first place, also has the consequence that not everyone might share their biggest concerns or opinions.
Marije: Was that different, Patrick, in the breaks? Did you see more people seeking each other’s input, asking questions?
Patrick: Some more, of course. The boundaries are a bit lower, but I think you did a great job content-wise in bringing together all the people from the industry. I also wanted to make the point about diversity, but we already touched upon that. And I think maybe the elephant in the room—and I know that Jeroen tried—but it would be nice to get a regulator on stage. I know some were involved, but it would be good to have their story on stage as well. So maybe next year—I’m very curious about their thoughts.
Marije: Okay. Anything else? Those were the points for improvement. Maybe as a final question— a lot happens during the day. Was there anything that you found particularly funny or very unexpected? Patrick, what happened there?
Patrick: Yeah, what surprised me the most at lunchtime—I took a step at Delen, Delen Private Bank, Frederik—was that the average age at Delen is 37. And I think at Rabobank, in private banking, it’s 57. So we had a nice topic to start with. But how do you look at talent? How do you keep talent on board? How do you get them into traineeships? It’s a hard thing for us. We’re working hard on that. So it was really surprisingly low at Delen Private Bank. So Frederik told me a little bit about that.
Marije: Interesting. What stood out for you in a funny sense, Kurt?
Kurt: In a funny or a good sense—kudos to you, because you presented all the speakers and the audience in a very pleasant way.
Marije: Unexpectedly.
Kurt: But that’s important. I think it’s important that it’s done with a laugh, that it’s really pleasant to be there, and that everybody has a good feeling. Also the speakers—that they feel comfortable. Because I have seen other cases. And yeah, the sun was shining. It was great. And you saw it also during the break—people were standing in the sun, and it makes people happy. So that’s great.
Marije: I think Dutch people are so happy that winter is over. As soon as the sun starts shining, we all go outside. But indeed, it was a sunny day. Boudewijn, anything funny that stays with you or that you found unexpected?
Boudewijn: On the funny side, I found Ansgar John Brenninkmeijer really fun to listen to. He had some amazing quotes, and I couldn’t keep up with him. But even when he was reflecting on the performance of their own business, they always had good news. “Price goes up, or the margin of safety goes up.” That will stick with me. So that was perfect for the audience earlier in the program. And there were obviously other funny moments that, as Kurt said, kept it quite casual. And I think you did a great job keeping it that way. So no, really—yeah, an enjoyable event today.
Marije: Thank you. I totally agree with you on the input of Ansgar John Brenninkmeijer and the fact that he brought on stage his little moneymaker that was constantly making noise with the trickling coins in there. I think he definitely knows how to make an impression, and people will not forget that he was a part of the agenda today. So that was definitely fun. Is there anything else, anything you wish to add? Any other remarks? No, that’s about it. Maybe the final words to you as the main partner of the event.
Kurt: No, like I said, there were many things. I think collaboration across the sector is something I would really like to explore a bit more actively. I know that’s obviously happening. But for me, I think we can address quite a few of the industry-wide challenges through active collaboration. For me, that is the one that stood out. I think Joy mentioned it at the end, but it was mentioned multiple times. And I think the thinking more broadly around ecosystems, right? In the discussions about family offices, it was discussed, but I think Martijn Storsbergen mentioned it, Frederik mentioned it, and I’ve mentioned it. It is really something that is worth exploring more actively—how is this ecosystem really changing? Yeah, there’s enough to take away from. And if you ask me tomorrow, I would probably have another five topics that I took out from it. So that was an excellent event. And yeah, it was great with all the attendees to get it to where it was, and all the speakers, of course.
Marije: Well, and I think thanks to also the three of you and the other speakers, as well as the audience. Thanks to everyone for being there because that’s what makes it special and worthwhile in the end, right? So yeah, I agree. Looking back on a great morning, looking forward to the next event, looking forward to the next podcast. Thank you so much for your time, for being here. Thank you to our listeners for checking in. Thank you.
Voice-over: You’ve been listening to Lead us in Finance. We hope you’ve enjoyed the episode and would love to hear from you. What’s on your mind? Who would you like to hear next? Tell us in an Apple or Google review, via email, or through our social media channels. We’d greatly appreciate it. Finally, we’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support. They are Kayak, EY, MeDirect, and Roland Berger. Thank you for listening.