Hannah Prins

Jeroen: Hannah Prins, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with Leaders in Finance in the lead-up to the Leaders in Sustainable Finance event at the end of this month, on January 30. First of all, could you please tell me a bit more about your background and who you are?

Hannah: My name is Hannah Prins, I’m 27. I studied criminal law and I’m a climate activist. I’ve been involved in the climate movement for the past five or six years. I was very active with Extinction Rebellion and now I’m part of Advocates for the Future, a new NGO where we combine law and climate action. I’m also a columnist, writing a biweekly column for Vrij Nederland.

Jeroen:  What exactly is an activist in your view? What makes you an activist?

Hannah: I think an activist is someone who stands up and says something that many people believe, but those in power don’t want to hear. That’s why I do see myself as an activist.I stand up and say, This isn’t right. Let’s follow the science.

Jeroen: What are the most important things on your mind right now when it comes to what science tells us, and what many people might agree with but haven’t acted on yet?

Hannah: We’re lucky to live in a temperate, wealthy country, which is why we don’t yet fully realize that we’re in the midst of a climate crisis. Temperatures haven’t been this high in centuries, and it will only continue to get warmer, with no sign of it slowing down. Our fossil fuel use has increased every year, and more than half of the fossil fuels have been emitted during my lifetime. We don’t yet fully understand the consequences, but in the near future, societal collapse is likely. We need to prepare and ensure that the worst effects are prevented. So that’s what’s on my mind. What’s also on my mind is the growing inequality between people and the rise of the extreme right, which is gaining power again.

Jeroen:  Right, there’s obviously always a big gap at the individual level, but also at the societal level, between what people think and say and what they actually do. But first, are most people agreeing with you at the moment, if you look at the Netherlands?

Hannah: Yes. 80% of people in the Netherlands want more climate policy, and worldwide even more, so that’s not the issue. The issue is the big corporations and the government, who don’t want to take action, even though they are the ones who can actually make a difference. 81% of CO2 emissions can be linked to just 57 companies. So it’s a small group of companies that are really responsible for the emissions of all these fossil fuels. Governments can create policies to address this, and we, as individuals, can do our part, but paper straws won’t save the world. We need those in power to actually act, like people in finance.

Jeroen: That’s actually great, because it used to be very different, I would say, 30 years ago—or even 10 or 15 years ago. But when it comes to how people act, companies, as you already mentioned, but also individuals—are they actually willing to give up a lot of things as well?

Hannah: We’re going to have to give up some things, but we also gain a lot in return — like clean air, more free time, safety, and greener spaces. And yes, some people will need to give up certain habits, like flying 10 times a year, but they’ll have to, because the consequences of not doing so are much worse. It’s also hard to give things up because of factors like advertising — our personal CO2 emissions are 31% higher due to the ads we see every day. And often, the better, more sustainable option is still far more expensive. For example, traveling by train is much more costly than traveling by car. So yes, it’s hard to give things up, but we need to do it to gain so much more in return.

Jeroen:  And you already made a segue into finance, have you worked with or against the financial industry in any form or fashion?

Hannah: No, and I never in my life plan on doing so.

Jeroen: That is interesting. Why not? Because they probably could have a big impact, right?

Hannah: A big impact yes, but they will always, because of our capitalist system, work toward the highest profits. And that means, in essence, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the industry which needs to change. I think you need to be very wary of working with sectors whose main goal is profit.

Jeroen: So, what is the role of financial services? What should their role be?

Hannah: First of all, I think their role needs to be properly maintained by governments. And second, money is essential to work towards solutions — but that’s not happening right now. We can’t “techno-fix” our way out of this crisis, but we do need to work towards some form of solutions, and that requires significant funding. The problem is that this money won’t yield large profits, but it still needs to be directed there, even if there is a return on investment.

Jeroen: Right, and maybe a practical idea related to financial services: since you’ll be on a panel with the CEO of Triodos Bank—also a bank that needs to make a profit—could that work together?

Hannah: Capitalism and making profits are two different things. If you look at what money can achieve, banks like Triodos and ASN are great examples of how you can use money as a force for good and work to change the system. But when you look at other banks in this country, like ING and Rabobank, they’ve contributed—at least in part—to the crisis we’re facing. Take Rabobank, for example, and its role in the issues with Dutch farmers, or ING with its investments in fossil fuels. That’s not how money should be used. So, I think it’s important to distinguish between making a profit and a capitalist system where profit is the sole objective.

Jeroen:  What is the most important question you would ask CEOs of financial services, or perhaps something you would make clear to them? After all, they are sitting on a hell of a lot of money that, as you mentioned, could be used for good.

Hannah:  If they look back on their life in 10 or 20 years, will they be able to say, “Yes, I did everything I could”? I think the answer right now is no. And that’s when the real decision comes: Do I stay here and try to change things from within, or do I say, “No, I’m going to go somewhere else where I can truly make a difference”?

Jeroen: Do you think the financial services industry could be a powerful lever for change? They have enormous financial resources, significant influence, and strong brand recognition. They could potentially shape how these 57 companies—and perhaps thousands more—operate.

Hannah:  Partially yes, partially no. Because again, if the people behind the money want to make more profits, then how is it going to work? We really need to move towards a different economy, one that involves degrowing certain parts of the economy so that others can grow. And if the goal of these people is money, money, money as their top priority, they can claim to care about other things, but ultimately, what have we really achieved? Greenwashing is lurking around the corner. But, yes, we do need to use money, but we need strong democratic institutions to guide it. And I think it’s very concerning that, at this time, we don’t have that. Money needs to move from where it is now to where it should be. Right now, it’s still deeply invested in fossil fuels, deeply entrenched in the agro industry. If that money could shift towards regenerative agriculture or renewable energy, that would be fantastic. But at its core, capitalism will always tend towards exploitation, cheap labor, and all those things. That’s why we need strong democratic institutions to steer the money, and we don’t really have that right now.

Jeroen: There are 75 different financial institutions in the room, what would you like to do? How would you like to change them— the INGs, ABN AMROs, Rabobanks of the world? Does regulation work? Because you’re talking about how the whole system should be different, but if we go one level lower, is regulation the way to go, or is it not enough?

Hannah: I understand that in this system, if you’re a company like ING or Shell, making profits is the goal because this system is designed for that. The system needs to change with much better regulation—regulating where you can invest your money and how much profit you can make. For example, shareholders are gaining so much, while certain costs are not taken into account. If you look at the oil industry, all these oil rigs are put in the ocean, and then companies like Shell and BP sell off the rigs to smaller companies. In the end, what remains is just a construction of stairs, and the oil rig is left at sea causing huge damage to nature. The money to clean that up should not come from us, it should be Shell’s responsibility. This is why we need strong regulation.

Jeroen:  So, should these banks, insurance companies, and asset management firms still lend money to fossil fuel companies? Because what many financial institutions do is focus heavily on investing in the green transition. But what they often fail to do is stop lending money or stop investing in the other sectors. They’re quite good at what Barbara Baarsma calls vergroenen (greening), but not at ontgrijzen (de-graying).

Hannah: No, they should not lend money. We all have a responsibility, and the responsibility of organizations like that is to stop lending money and giving loans to fossil fuel companies. I mean, investments in green energy are still very small, so they don’t really invest in green energy, but if you don’t phase down or phase out fossil fuels, then what are you actually doing? Our energy consumption is only going up.

Jeroen: Yes, thanks a lot, Hannah, for taking the time to speak to leaders in finance. We’re very much looking forward to having you at the Leaders in Sustainable Finance Event on the 30th of January, 2025.