–> This is a pre-event interview in the run-up to the Leaders in Finance Cyber AML Europe event on 29 June 2023 in Brussels.
Jeroen: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to Leaders in Finance in the run-up to this AML Europe event later this month. I’m very glad you’re taking the time to do this. First of all, maybe you could introduce yourself and also explain to us which organization you represent?
Jolien: I’m Jolien, I’m 35 years old, and as we speak, I’ve been working at KBC Bank for ten years now. KBC Bank is one of the big four financial institutions in Belgium. I started as a bank employee in the agency as an advisor. But shortly afterwards, I switched to compliance and started my journey in AML as a compliance investigator. Throughout the years, I moved to Compliance Risk Manager in the security business, also within KBC. Right now, I’m still in AML, leading a team of AML investigators and trying to transpose my experiences on them. And I hope successfully I would say. So that’s what I’m up to right now.
Jeroen: That’s great. What makes AML so interesting for you? What’s the reason you have done a quite significant number of things in this field?
Jolien: I studied criminology, so the criminal side of people always captured my interest. For whatever reason, I started my career at a bank, so not really in line with my degree. But when I saw the vacancy for the compliance function, I thought it was a perfect match for my degree and interest. It was a fit immediately. I really enjoyed the work of investigating as I’ve always been quite curious about things and wanted to find out about them. And I really could do that in being an investigator. That job also stimulated the general interest in AML as a topic, and I looked up relevant information. I started reading about it in my own spare time and became really passionate about it.
Jeroen: That’s great, that’s where it all starts, to be successful in the job. Over the years, because you’ve been following this from different positions, but still, you’ve been very close to AML-KYC, what are some of the changes you’ve seen unfold over the years?
Jolien: In general, of course, the regulatory framework has increased enormously. We’ve had the papers, the offshore leaks, all the investigative journalism which really contributed to the public interest, in my opinion. And so, overall it is an exponential increase in awareness regarding AML, not to mention the million-dollar fines for all the financial institutions over the years. All this ensured my personal perspective besides working for a financial institution. There has been a major increase in resources and awareness also from a professional point of view. AML has become an essential part of the strategy, and it has been made visible throughout the entire institution, whereas before it was hidden somewhere in a corner with everyone just trying to ignore it as much as possible. And now it’s really there, it’s an essential part of KBC as a bank.
Jeroen: So all in all, it has just become way more important, to summarize it in my words?
Jolien: Yes.
Jeroen: Do you think the trends you are just describing will continue in approximately the same direction, or do you see any other changes in the near future?
Jolien: I think the awareness will be there and stay there. The main focus will shift in regards to the patterns that we see the way money is laundered. We see some gigantic shifts there, and we, as a financial institution, will have to adapt. For example, if you talk about all the new technologies, I think there will be an impact both on the money-laundering side as well as the anti-money laundering side. For the next years, it will be about finding a balance with focusing on the more traditional ways of money laundering. I guess the rather traditional ways will just stay there, they will not just disappear or go away. But we’ll also have to take the new ways of money laundering into account. I think as a financial institution we play a big role in the whole process, also in trying to discover new typologies. For example, if you take crypto coins; crypto is becoming more and more regulated, so I think it’s quite possible that there will be a shift towards even newer technology, like Metaverse or whatever else is coming. And in that case, I think there is also a need for speed, if I can phrase it like that, both from financial institutions but especially from regulatory bodies. Taking the example of crypto, it’s still evolving, we have had the EU council that’s opted new rules just a couple of weeks ago, so there certainly is movement but it’s quite slow. It’s 2023, we saw the emergence of crypto in 2017. That’s quite some years in which a lot of laundering could be done and undoubtedly has been done. As a financial institution, we’ve been struggling – and I think I can speak for all financial institutions – for years now on how to handle crypto-related transactions. I think that, in the coming years, we will be more and more confronted with those kinds of challenges. And so, the focus will have to stay. In that sense, I do think we will be needing those investments in AML and in the framework around it. I see it as an ongoing process.
Jeroen: Right, that makes sense. Something that stood out specifically to me when I was listening to you is what you phrased as the need for speed from regulators to quickly act. So you also know exactly what to do and what not to do. Are there other tips or wishes you have apart from the need for speed for regulators or your institution or other financial institutions or the government or any others?
Jolien: That’s a bit related to the previous question. But for me, what is really essential and crucial in the fight against money laundering, is the exchange of information and experiences between all parties involved. FI’s, FIU’s, regulatory bodies that also advise themselves. That is something that doesn’t happen right now, so everyone is working on their little island, so to speak. It’s very fragmented, and I think that is a major advantage for any launderer. They just have to take it to another bank or cross a border, and it’s done. So that is a big challenge, I think. And that is something that could really make a difference. In general, we have more of the awareness about AML within the financial institutions, the financial landscape. But I wish that there would also be that increase in awareness with the general public. It’s a bit of an open door, but right now, it’s mostly just considered white-collar crime, victimless crime that doesn’t really affect people directly. But still, it can have some severe consequences, when the proper evidence is supplied of course. And speaking of media, not only the specific journalism which is read and viewed by compliance professionals, but also in general, there could be a bit more attention going towards the AML topic as well, in my opinion.
Jeroen: Great points. So exchange of information between all kinds of bodies is really important, making sure that by doing that you don’t have these fragmented different islands, but you really combine the information. And the third one, more general awareness with the public. These are great points. I just interviewed Tom Burgis, who is one of the speakers for the event, he writes these books and one of his goals is really by writing in a nice style that he hopes that people pick up the story more and not just think about money laundering as something that is ticking a box within FI, but really has to do with really tough predicate offences and criminal behaviour across the globe. That makes total sense. Maybe last but not least, you’re actively participating in the event later this month, which we are very glad about, is there something that you want to get out of an event like this?
Jolien: It is, in fact, my goal to speak to other compliance AML professionals to exchange that experience. Because right now, also for us, we have our tunnel vision from what we know and what we do, and I’m really looking forward to just speaking to other people who are confronted with the same problems and challenges and to get new visions and new opinions. That’s what I’m really looking forward to. You mentioned it yourself already, I’m really looking forward to meeting Tom Burgis, because I read his book, and I’m really looking forward to meeting him in person.
Jeroen: It’s a very interesting person. Did you read Kleptopia or The Looting Machine?
Jolien: I read Kleptopia.
Jeroen: He has an older book as well, The Looting Machine, on Africa. But Kleptopia is the one I also read. Wonderful! Jolien, thanks a lot for taking the time, and we’re very much looking forward to having you at the event on the 29th of June in Brussels. I’m glad that we also have a bank from Belgium, given we are in Brussels. Although it’s the European capital, but still, it’s the country of Belgium. Thanks a lot for taking the time!
Jolien: No problem!
–> This is a pre-event interview in the run-up to the Leaders in Finance Cyber AML Europe event on 29 June 2023 in Brussels.